Making the case

[Shockm]

Since it is my thread I'll probably jump in more than normal to defend my case. Like Baker, I think that
ES makes a better two guard, however, I feel THIS YEAR the team lacks a decent point guard and he
is our best option given what we have. I love quick and fast regardless of size but you HAVE to use that
quickness as a strength to collapse defenses and dish or attack the basket. SHJ does not seem to know
how to use his strength other than to create shooting space for himself. His other strength was suppose to
be shooting as a two guard. That has been bad, as well, and he is a liability on D. All the same can be
said about RT. Their offense doesn't even come close to making up for their defensive inabilities / size.
It's too late to build around Jones as he will be gone next year. I could be wrong but I will be shocked if
RT is our starting PG next season or even averages north of ten minutes a game. For the interim, I
would , at least, give ES a chance to run the team with JB backing him up. I also want DD to come out of
his shell offensively both shooting and attacking the basket.

Two positions is more than ES can handle as a Freshman at this time. He needs to learn the 2 guard and, spend extra time shooting, and improve his other skills at the college level. Height is fine but I like Fred more than any of big guards that we had then or since. Size is not as big of a deal as a lot of other things including IQ, etc. Eric's IQ if fine for a freshman but he needs to improve that too. Don't put too much on his plate. Even Fred was only given one position to learn as a Freshman.

[top20shock]

Agree, Burton and Stevenson should start IMO

[pinstripers]

I think Gregg is still hopeful, but if things go sideways, the Seniors minutes (currently about 50% of the scoring) will decrease.

SHJ may see his minutes decline, but Duff won't. We have nobody to take his place, and Coach wants to help him get to the NBA

[WstateU]

https://i.imgflip.com/14j6u5.jpg

[im4wsu]

SHJ may see his minutes decline, but Duff won't. We have nobody to take his place, and Coach wants to help him get to the NBA

Explain to me why anybody would want to reduce MM's minutes. He needs to be out there, he just needs somebody else to step up and be aggressive (DD, JB, RB, are you listening?) and pretend to be in the offense.

MM is not the one-on-one defensive player that I thought he was two years ago. I don't know if it is reduced lateral movement due to injury or something else, but he is just not the same guy that would take the other team's point guard and smother him. Of course, right now he is not surrounded with a superb team defense with Cotton, Kelly, and the like, either.

[ShockerFever]

How about limit SHJ when he ain't on

IMO, most, if not all of his shots, are bad shots. When they don't go in, that's the only time anyone complains. But even when they go in, they're still bad shots. They're JUCO-type shots that are proceeded by a bunch of dribbling, little to no passing, and standing. SHJ rarely looks to get the ball inside. The offense is completely stagnant when he's in there or attempts to run the point. I think I've seen as many bad shots hoisted by him through the first 8 games this year than I've seen in the last 8 seasons by all players COMBINED. And don't get me started on the defense. That is clearly a secondary function for him. There's literally nothing buy JUCO on both sides of the ball.

There is no purpose for SHJ to be starting or getting as many minutes as he does. I'm sorry, but he's not a D-1 basketball player, and DEFINITELY not a major program D-1 basketball player. Let the young guys get going like KC said. SHJ does more harm than good out there. It's obvious through 2 years that the JUCO will never fully leave his body.

[Aargh]

Stevenson is DEFINITELY NOT a PG. Burton is a combo who "can play PG" from what we've heard and to some extent seen. The combo guards who some thought could play PG that have been on rosters at WSU recently: Ty Taylor, Ri'an Holland, Corey Henderson, Conner Frankamp, Ron Baker, Landry Shamet. Tekele Cotton was even tried there.

When Baker played PG, he was all-MVC caliber at that position. He was AA caliber at SG, so putting him there effectively traded an AA player for an all-MVC player.

When Shamet played the position, we saw a great PG. Probably a legitimate 3rd team AA guy. The '76'ers saw a 1st-round NBA SG, and were rewarded by getting the equivalent of a lottery pick late in the first round. Had Shamet been able to play his natural position, we probably would have seen the lottery pick player instead of the 3rd team AA player.

This year, the only PG on the roster is Torres. Writing a JuCo off before February should never happen. It takes them that long to adjust to D1 ball and Marshall's game. This year our fates are riding on Torres at the point, and so far that hasn't worked at all. The only option is Haynes-Jones. The only thing worse than a JuCo player trying to adjust, or a Sr playing out of position at PG is a Fr combo trying to play PG.

There never was a PG on the roster to back up VanVleet. Moving Baker to PG took an AA SG off the floor. Using Baker to back up an injured VanVleet was like a football team using an All-American running back at quarterback because there wasn't a backup on the roster. There hasn't been a PG on the roster since VanVleet graduated. I will change my opinion on that subject if Torres shows that he can play that position at a respectable D1 level.

[asiseeit]

Cold touched on a very good and valid point that applies to ALL players not just a few HS stars.
Having experienced it a little myself I know what he is talking about. It can be a pretty rude
awakening for some players when they start playing against bigger, quicker, longer and BETTER
players. All of a sudden they find out they are not as good as they ( or coaches ) thought they
were. Shooting over another six footer with shorter arms and questionable defensive ability is
a LOT different than shooting over a 6'5 guard with long arms and good defensive abilities. I
respect Aargh's opinion. He may be right but I thought ES was recruited as a combo guard - he handles
the ball pretty well, has long arms, can drive and shoot. I won't be able to judge him as a PG
until I see him there a couple games. As for JB I disagree about him being a two guard or a three.
Both those positions require a level of shooting ability he has NOT demonstrated yet. I do know
that both are much better defenders than the small guys. I would add that PG requires a special
kind of mentality. RT seems to have THAT but little else. SHJ does not. Don't know about ES but
I think he "gets" that part of it.

[FadedCrown]

Only thing that needs to happen is to bench SHJ. His 94.1 ORtg on KenPom is near abysmal when compared to other players used the same rate as him. He is not even close to being Top 100 in that category. Even if you ignore the stats and use the eye test, he is worse! You guys watch him play and I don't understand how you can like him. He is not bad at running the offense but his shot selection is absolutely terrible.

Also, just found out his ORtg was higher last year.

[Dan]

Whether ES has a PG mentality or not doesn’t matter as much as whether he has the handles and vision necessary to play the role. Even Ron Baker (a combo guard) struggled to run the team when Fred was out. Combo guards work in short bursts but are by no means the answer. We need a true PG that can be a 4 year true PG.

[Shockm]

And Ron didn't play the point in his true Freshman season. Did he even play it during his RS Freshman season? I don't think that Coach Marshall has ever had a starting Freshman point guard during his entire Shocker career. Maybe some day that will change but I'm not sue it will change with someone who really isn't a true point guard. However, I'm not sure we have a true point guard that is capable of starting whether that is a juco transfer or not.