3 guard lineup

[giskard]

Taylor Eldridge posted a nice story about the Shocks using a three guard lineup last year and why we didn't see it more.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Live by the three, die by the three.


T


...:cool:

[ShockTalk]

I like to see how those numbers held up against the better opponents (top 100 RPI) and home vs away for both types of lineups. Somewhat interested in what was the 3rd most used type of lineup and its numbers.

[tayloreldridge]

Great point, ShockTalk. After going back and looking at just top-100 KenPom competition, the numbers were staggering. I've updated them in the story, but it really shows the steep decline the defense suffered against legit teams. They played 62 minutes against top competition. The offense scored at 1.39 PPP on 126 possessions, but the defense gave up 1.30 PPP on 113 possessions. Yikes.

[tayloreldridge]

The third-most used lineup was 3 bigs at the same time with Rashard Kelly at SF and then a combo of Darral Willis, Shaquille Morris and Rauno Nurger. WSU only used this structure in the non-conference, essentially scrapping the idea when McDuffie came back. In total, WSU played 72 minutes with the lineup (about 6% total) and had surprising success. The offense scored at 1.23 PPP in 124 possessions and the defense held opponents to 0.86 PPP (!!!) in 108 possessions.

Peel those numbers back against top-100 KenPom teams and the numbers hold up. WSU played it about 46 minutes vs. Baylor, ND, OU, Marquette & Oklahoma State. The offense remains steady at 1.23 PPP and the defense actually *improves* to 0.80 PPP. Crazy stuff.

[ShockTalk]

Thanks, Taylor.

[AZ Shocker]

Hard to get 3 stud shooters that play terrific lock-down defense as well. Seems that would be a receipe for a National Title type team. I bet Gregg could find those types though. Heck...we might even just have 'em now. Can't wait to see! Go Shocks!!!

[Aargh]

I think the stats might be skewed a bit by which teams the stats were accumulated against. It seemed to me that when the Shox went to the 3-guard lineup in games that really mattered, we were shooting 3's while the opponents were running layup drills.

Then there's the fact that opponents only had to play D against 3 guys with a 2-guard lineup , but had to defend 4 guys with the 3-guard lineup. This is a little disturbing with Kelly scoring well in Euro ball this year. Kelly was second on the team in assists/game, and suddenly this year he's a scoring threat in Euro ball.

I'm afraid that "familiarity breeds contempt" was more prominent than "Senior leadership" on last year's team. Some of the time, a group of guys who've played with each other for a lot of years have played with each other for too many years.

[tayloreldridge]

The offensive numbers hold up against top-100 competition (1.39 PPP), but you're right that legit teams were able to eviscerate the defense for 1.30 PPP.

[proshox]

The real question - what would one expect to happen to the defense when playing against superior teams? While the 1.3 PPP allowed is alarming - it needs context.

All averages are a mix of cupcakes and top tier competitor. I would need to know what the expected shift in defensive efficiency is for the segment of teams Taylor is selecting.

[AZ Shocker]

System. Kelly could score. Just not a lot of opportunities in our system for him. Also...as you know...different game Euro-Ball is. Good catch and analysis Aargh. Your screen-name should be "On Point". :)

[60Shock]

Oh, to have another 3 guard lineup that even comes close to Fred, Ron, and Cotton.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Fred might be a once in a lifetime PG. He's even turning the NBA on it's ass.

But I think another Ron or Tekele is more a likelihood than possibility. We've got some great players on this team.

One thing that often went overlooked with Fred, Ron, and Tekele was their TREMENDOUS character. These were old school warriors in the fullest sense. Go ahead and add in Wessel too when talking about character. We had four guys that would go to war for their coach EVERY night no matter what was happening in their lives.


T


...:cool:

[WuShock16]

^^^THIS!

All players obviously need coaching. That said, I remember thinking during the 2014-15 season that Gregg could have literally sat down on the bench, grabbed a soda and some popcorn, and watched like a fan for several minutes, and the team would have been just fine with Fred, Ron, Tekele, and Evan were on the floor together. They certainly made mistakes here and there on the floor (I remember a game at Drake? where Ron and Fred both fouled three-point shooters in the span of about five minutes) but you NEVER had to worry about those guys slacking effort.

Speaking of Fred, WuDrWu has a FANTASTIC story of 3G, Chris Jans, and Fred interacting at a certain practice.

[choida]

https://twitter.com/goshockersmbb/status/1048021977531916288?s=21

Potential starting lineup?

SHJ Torress Dennis McDuffie & Echenique

[Shocker1976]

Wow, IMO the Shockers will be stronger than I hoped for if you are correct regards the starting five!

[wufan]

Pretty reasonable.

[choida]

Going to see some good players transferring out this off-season. Better ones coming in hopefully.