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  • #61
    Originally posted by ARShocker View Post
    What's the common denominator here? There is where you will find your problem.
    I’ve always like your posts and insight but either say what you are trying to hint at or don’t say anything.

    To be direct in your comment. The common denominator is that Marshall is a tough coach. He’s not for soft players/coaches. They end up leaving to not so great results (so far). The players (Van Vleet, Baker, Shamet, Early to an extent) that stay succeed. The coach’s that stayed for a decent amount of time have succeeded. That’s the common denominator here. I honestly can’t remember a player or coach that bolted early (except to the NBA) from Marshall’s tenure here that went on to do great things ....

    Comment


    • Bluzrover
      Bluzrover commented
      Editing a comment
      One could add Shaq Morris to this list. I don't recall 3G EVER publically calling out AR. But damn, how many public admonitions did he lay at Shaq's feet?!

    • Stickboy46
      Stickboy46 commented
      Editing a comment
      I actually think i recall Marshall removing blame from Austin on a few games where Austin made some critical errors (along with some great plays for his credit)

  • #62
    The only problem here is believing there's only one style of coaching that is best.

    Not everyone coaches like Bob Knight. Not everyone coaches like Jay Wright either. Yet one can be successful using either style.

    The key is finding players and assistants who are a good fit for a head coach's style. It sounds like we've neglected to do that the past few years, but we are quickly resolving that issue.
    "It's amazing to watch Ron slide into that open area, Fred will find him and it's straight cash homie."--HCGM

    Comment


    • #63
      The common denominator I saw last year was that our perimeter players couldn't (or wouldn't, but surely didn't) penetrate much and get to the rim for fouls or drop-off passes to post players. Another common denominator I saw last year was that our perimeter players couldn't (or wouldn't, but surely didn't ) stop opposing perimeter players from driving on them or from hitting 3's at their best rate all season.

      I suspect that was involved with some personnel issues, both on the staff and among the players. I expect our perimeter players this year will be substantially quicker than our perimeter players last year.

      The way our perimeter defense worked last year (it was non-existent) may have led to some conversations that some players and assistant coaches may have found unpleasant.
      The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.
      We like to cut down nets and get sized for championship rings.

      Comment


      • #64
        My opinion is that Marshall was with Heiar and Jans (as well as Forbes) for years and, as Chris Rock so eloquently states, "during the course of a relationship, a man becomes accustomed to a few things." The luxuries he had with Jans and Heiar on the bench were many, and those luxuries were not present with Lindsted and Jones. I think he has certainly grown, shall we say, impatient in many regards now that his assistants cannot perform the tasks as well as the old ones did. I cannot imagine that he was thrilled with the scouting and in-game input from these fellows.
        Last edited by Kel Varnsen; July 17, 2018, 09:59 AM.
        "In God we trust, all others must bring data." - W. Edwards Deming

        Comment


        • Shockm
          Shockm commented
          Editing a comment
          That is not an opinion. It is speculation and you are welcome to do it.

          My speculation is that GM was very unhappy, and went over the edge at the way we lost to Marshall in the NCAA Tourney. Then we lost our best recruit. The negativity was felt by the team who was disappointed too, coaches, and fans. If we had won that game, and maybe had a little or lot of success in the NCAA T, GM (the fans too) would have felt less much less disappointment and this off season negativity wouldn't have been so pronounced (likely very little negativity if we had Tourney success).

          There would have been.a little turnover but Austin would still be here (maybe CJ too) and at least one of the Asst. Coaches wouldn't have left. Everyone would be less negative. We don't know whether the coaches were asked to leave (and I think it's wrong to speculate on that), but I feel confident that pressure went from the top down to change things. We don't really have any idea to all of the conversations that took place so any further speculation is not a good idea imo. The bottom line is that it is amazing how important tourney success and not ending the season on such a low note would have been.

        • ShockdaWorld
          ShockdaWorld commented
          Editing a comment
          Did I just hear you right? You’re putting in your speculation and then saying that further speculation is a bad idea?

      • #65
        Can you imagine an Heier/Jans scouting report versus a Lindsted/Jones?

        Something like this probably.





        vs.




        T


        ...:cool:

        Comment


        • #66
          With all due respect, I'm not sure if you really know how the scouting report is developed. It is a Team Effort with Nick Jones doing full time work at finding video's on each opponent throughout the season. Devon Smith is involved too, along with one Asst. Coach responsible for the finalized product each game.

          That is one reason why Chris Jans, during his last year here was so valuable. He couldn't coach individual players so he had a lot of time to put into watching video for tendencies and helping to develop scouting reports for each game. He knew teams inside and out because all he could really do was watch video, and WSU practices too and give GM his opinion on what needed to improve. The full time Asst. Coaches have responsibilities for extensive day to day recruiting , day to day practices, etc.

          Comment


          • #67
            Originally posted by Shockm View Post
            With all due respect, I'm not sure if you really know how the scouting report is developed. It is a Team Effort with Nick Jones doing full time work at finding video's on each opponent throughout the season. Devon Smith is involved too, along with one Asst. Coach responsible for the finalized product each game.

            That is one reason why Chris Jans, during his last year here was so valuable. He couldn't coach individual players so he had a lot of time to put into watching video for tendencies and helping to develop scouting reports for each game. He knew teams inside and out because all he could really do was watch video, and WSU practices too and give GM his opinion on what needed to improve. The full time Asst. Coaches have responsibilities for extensive day to day recruiting , day to day practices, etc.
            With all due respect, the proof is in the pudding. We went from statistically the best defense in the country to.....not so much. Talk about common denominators.

            Comment


            • Shockm
              Shockm commented
              Editing a comment
              Your argument is that Scouting was the reason for the downturn? It went a lot deeper than that and blame should be placed all the way to the top (Marshall included) and included changing conferences, recruiting, a lack of strength for our guards in a conference with big guards, our Seniors (Brown, Nurger etc.) and other leaders less effective defensively, MM not being as good as the prior year, etc.

            • shock
              shock commented
              Editing a comment
              Coaching was the reason ya nitwit.

          • #68
            What was sought with Jones was his familiarity with the AAC. What was found was why he was let go by UCF.

            He got us contacts with a lot of highly regarded players out of Florida. Do we still have any potential recruits from Florida on our recruiting radar?
            The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.
            We like to cut down nets and get sized for championship rings.

            Comment


            • #69
              It's pretty simple really. If your team talent pool shrinks, you have critical tasks making their way down to less qualified people.

              In the beginning I vehemently opposed any talk of our defensive woes being attributable to assistant coaching turnover. I believed that Gregg Marshall was the puppet master and to think that anybody else was contributing to his success was ludicrous. However, when framed around the theory that the puppet master is going to struggle no matter how talented he is if his puppets are raggedy and broken... I acquiesced.

              It should be clear to all that a top 10 division one program is a monster with many heads and Gregg Marshall is a control freak. The Achilles heal of control freaks is their unwillingness to delegate. He must be able to delegate and he must be able to trust those he delegates to or the task gets snatched back. I wonder if Gregg would say that he worked harder last year than any other year at WSU he can remember. He simply lacked good help.


              T


              ...:cool:

              Comment


              • #70
                Originally posted by Shockm
                That is not an opinion. It is speculation and you are welcome to do it.

                My speculation is that GM was very unhappy, and went over the edge at the way we lost to Marshall in the NCAA Tourney. Then we lost our best recruit. The negativity was felt by the team who was disappointed too, coaches, and fans. If we had won that game, and maybe had a little or lot of success in the NCAA T, GM (the fans too) would have felt less much less disappointment and this off season negativity wouldn't have been so pronounced (likely very little negativity if we had Tourney success).

                There would have been.a little turnover but Austin would still be here (maybe CJ too) and at least one of the Asst. Coaches wouldn't have left. Everyone would be less negative. We don't know whether the coaches were asked to leave (and I think it's wrong to speculate on that), but I feel confident that pressure went from the top down to change things. We don't really have any idea to all of the conversations that took place so any further speculation is not a good idea imo. The bottom line is that it is amazing how important tourney success and not ending the season on such a low note would have been.
                Whoa, whoa, whoa. Beating Marshall would have changed little. That game would not have been a cure, it was a symptom of what had gone on all year. There was always hope that as time went on during the season, things would change. The coaches would all get use to each other better, learn from each other, and the players with the coaches. They did not. Did you miss the late season "dress-downs" HCGM had with the staff during games?

                Sometimes, things just don't fit together like everyone hopes. I believe Marshall had a special relationship with CJ, and to a lesser extent GH. Losing both was like a bridge falling down. I'm sure that with the number of seniors and other returning players, there was belief that the senior leadership and with the experience of the team, it would all work out. Early in the season, there were bumps, maybe more than some would have thought. It did not necessarily show up just in a loss, but more so the level of play and toughness. It didn't get better, it got worse.

                Whatever it was, between coaches and/or between coaches and players, it never got resolved. Personally, I felt Lindsted's leaving had as much as anything to do with AR leaving. It probably wasn't the only thing, but it might have been final thing. He was the one who recruited AR and closed the deal.....as long as HCGM wanted him and he did.

                Comment


                • C0|dB|00ded
                  C0|dB|00ded commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Lindsted left because he was out of his depth. A grown ass man with a grown ass family isn't leaving a program due to a scorned recruit. Lindsted knew Marshall very well having worked with him for many years. Lindsted is going to a middling-to-low Big 10 school where he can get paid to load videos and return recruiting calls. His work life just went from an intensity of 11 to about 4.


                  T


                  ...:cool:

                • Shockm
                  Shockm commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Marshall knew Linsted frontward and backward from Sunrise. He had visited with him numerous times because Linsred was running our stuff. Gregg and staff trained him.

                • ShockTalk
                  ShockTalk commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Cold, maybe I should have worded it better, but I didn't say Lindsted left because of AR. I think Lindsted's leaving was the final thing that made AR decide to go elsewhere.

                  Shockm, Marshall may have known Lindsted well, but this was the first season they coached together without Jans and Heiar around. Maybe he was good at running Marshall's stuff at Sunrise and he filled a roll at WSU, but with Jans and Heiar gone, he was to replace the some of their duties and was now on "the front lines". Those were big shoes for him and Jones to fill.

              • #71

                Comment


                • kcshocker11
                  kcshocker11 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Coaching Changes seems to be an idiot

                • pinstripers
                  pinstripers commented
                  Editing a comment
                  ya think?

                • shock
                  shock commented
                  Editing a comment
                  He is there for comedic relief

              • #72
                The fact he got exactly one like and one retweet from that pile of wisdom tells you all you need to know. He has lately been less about good intel and more about race baiting and bad humor.

                Comment


                • #73
                  It's all in fun...I think it's just for humor

                  Comment


                  • Bluzrover
                    Bluzrover commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hmmm, is it you choida?

                  • OregonShocker
                    OregonShocker commented
                    Editing a comment
                    If so, he's as bad at humor as he is at anaylsis!
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