Baseball 2017 Edition - What would you do?

[Cdizzle]

Yes, Gene made a regional in his last season, but he was also 27 outs from being two-and-'que in the Valley Tournament

What does this even mean? Maybe they were close to 2 and Q, but end of the day they weren't.

...and then after making that miraculous run to win the MVC Tournament, the team was EMBARRASSED against K-State in the opening game of the NCAA Tournament (in case anyone has forgotten about 20-11).

Yep.
Number of times embarrassed in 2013: 2. Once to a regional host.
Number of times embarrassed in 2016: 6.

(I used 7+ runs MoV, but it gets way worse for 2016 if you lower it another run or 2.)

But this guy gets a pass.

[shockfan89_]

Ask Gene if winning the conference title fixed everything.........

I'll ask again, what would satisfy you for 2017?

JohnQ - I didn't say winning a MVC title fixes everything. I think most fans have stated winning the MVC or a close 2nd place 3 out or 5 years is the MINIMUM expectation. If we are an at-large team next year many people will change their tune.

Personally I think we need to finish 1st or a close 2nd and make it to the MVC championship. I say 38-23 is my minimum which should be pretty easy given how weak I expect the MVC to be next year. But, I thought we would finish 1st or 2nd this year so that shows you how much I know...

[1972Shocker]

Serious question: Is any other evaluation given when recruiting? Or is it just "yep, he's >6'2" and wearing a baseball uniform. must be great.

I realize this question was rhetorical and only serious from the point you are making. But sadly when you view the Shocker team it certainly does not look like there is much evaluation of anything other than size.

I don't mind a lumbering lumberjack or two but in this day of the BBCOR bats their importance is greatly diminished if they don't bring anything else to the table. Personally, I like guys who can run and who can spray the ball to all fields, don't strike out a lot, can lay down an occasional bunt, steal some bases and understand situational hitting. Can they get to balls and catch them when they get there. A solid accurate arm is better than a powerful cannon with lousy aim. But perhaps more importantly, it would be nice to have players who know where to throw it and when to throw it. In other words we need some Kevin Hooper-style, high BBIQ baseball players. Maybe a Kevin Hooper coach would understand that and get that implemented.

[ShockTalk]

It doesn't matter what this team does next year......just know that it won't be enough for the satisfaction of many on the forum. Is .500 good enough? Not in my book, but it may be enough of an improvement to satisfy others. You do raise a good question: What is good enough for 2017?

Improvement alone for next year is no longer an option. This year was a FAIL and there is no other way to slice it. I would be surprised if anyone on this board could say otherwise for finishing with a losing record and going 0-2 in the tourney in his 3rd year in THE VALLEY. What Butler does in the MVC is the lowest of all goals for this program and the first thing I consider as to any basic level of success. Even with our 1 and 2 starting pitchers out (Willie did pitch about 2/3s of the season), this program by the 3 year should have been good enough to have reversed that record in the Valley to 12-9 and been .500 overall.

As for what I would consider as a minimum for his 4th year is only slightly less than what I would expect at the time of his hiring. One of three things must happen: 1) Win the regular season title, 2) Finish 2nd in the regular season, win the Valley tourney, or 3) If neither of the first two, qualify as an at large team. At the time of his hiring, I expected 2 of 3 of those qualifiers for the 4th year.

The time for moral victories has gone by the wayside with this year's performance. This program needs to have a successful season. For a coach making $300,000+, I expect a lot more and I expect it more quickly. With Gene's salary I expected it out of him and Butler's no different.

[Cdizzle]

I'm done being rhetorical. At this point, I would literally like to know if the genius doing the recruiting is evaluating anything other than a player's height. What does he look for in a ball player? Because at this point, I really do not think it would be difficult for myself to put together a recruiting class very similar to his. And I should NOT be coaching WSU baseball. But at the very least, I would do it for a heck of a lot less. And I would be pissed about losing.

[ShockTalk]

I realize this question was rhetorical and only serious from the point you are making. But sadly when you view the Shocker team it certainly does not look like there is much evaluation of anything other than size.

I don't mind a lumbering lumberjack or two but in this day of the BBCOR bats their importance is greatly diminished if they don't bring anything else to the table. Personally, I like guys who can run and who can spray the ball to all fields, don't strike out a lot, can lay down an occasional bunt, steal some bases and understand situational hitting. Can they get to balls and catch them when they get there. A solid accurate arm is better than a powerful cannon with lousy aim. But perhaps more importantly, it would be nice to have players who know where to throw it and when to throw it. In other words we need some Kevin Hooper-style, high BBIQ baseball players. Maybe a Kevin Hooper coach would understand that and get that implemented.

:good::good::good::good::good::good::good:

[WstateU]

But sadly when you view the Shocker team it certainly does not look like there is much evaluation of anything other than size.

[1972Shocker]

At the end of the year I thought the two best players on the team were Trey Vickers and Travis Young no doubt influenced by my personal preferences on the kind of baseball I like to see. Neither guy is tiny but they are far from the lumberjack class that HCTB seems to favor. Trey isn't that fast but he has good instincts and pretty decent range and a good, accurate arm at SS. He really cam on offensively and one of the few Shockers that seemed willing to spray the ball around when so many of the Shocker hitters seem pull happy and intent on swinging for the fences. Of course, I do recall HCTB liked his guys swinging as hard as they could.

Travis Young made great strides late in the season as well and he has very good speed and from all accounts is a very tough kid who works very hard.

[WuShock16]

What does this even mean? Maybe they were close to 2 and Q, but end of the day they weren't.

It means they lost their first game of the Valley Tournament and would not have surprised anyone had they lost the second game. To their credit, yes, they did rally and won the next five games.

And in no way am I giving HCTB a pass. I like the guy on a personal level but understand that next year has to show something. That's all I said.

[shockfan89_]

It means they lost their first game of the Valley Tournament and would not have surprised anyone had they lost the second game. To their credit, yes, they did rally and won the next five games.

And in no way am I giving HCTB a pass. I like the guy on a personal level but understand that next year has to show something. That's all I said.

I agree but weren't we all saying the same thing last year? Does HCTB really need to do well next year or will we get the same BS excuses and give him a 5th year even if next year is a disappointment?

[WuShock16]

I agree but weren't we all saying the same thing last year? Does HCTB really need to do well next year or will we get the same BS excuses and give him a 5th year even if next year is a disappointment?

Fair point, and I wouldn't argue if the trigger was pulled this year. Seeing as it won't happen this time around, I think 2017 has to be at-large or bust...no doubt about it.

[SB Shock]

What results of the Shocker baseball team would satisfy your expectations for 2017?

There is to many resources and money put into WSU baseball to allow for the standard MVC expectation of hopefully being good once every 4 years. The standard has been set:

1. Winning the MVC regular season,
2. Being an at-large worthy team.

A plus would be worth of hosting a regional
Butler would be a god if he produced a team that was worth of hosting a super regional
Butler would get a contract extension if he take the team to CWS.

[Wuzee]

I'm done being rhetorical. At this point, I would literally like to know if the genius doing the recruiting is evaluating anything other than a player's height. What does he look for in a ball player? Because at this point, I really do not think it would be difficult for myself to put together a recruiting class very similar to his. And I should NOT be coaching WSU baseball. But at the very least, I would do it for a heck of a lot less. And I would be pissed about losing.

Literally, here's how outside scouting services -- who presumably do not rank on height -- ranked some of the pitchers recruited during Butler's tenure. (current WSU status in parenthesis).

Jeb Bargfeldt, LHP, Owasso, OK -- Louisville Slugger High School All-American (left team, 10-1 for Cisco TX CC, signed with Miami FL)
Keylan Killgore, RHP, Wichita, KS (Heights) -- No. 1 RHP in KS (redshirt)

Connor Lungwitz, RHP, Maize, KS (Maize) -- No. 3 RHP in KS (2-2, 7.58 ERA)
Codi Heuer, RHP, Windsor, CO (Fossil Ridge)-- No. 4 RHP in CO (1-1, 9.12 ERA)

Gabe Constantine, LHP, McKinney, TX (North) -- No. 8 LHP in TX (redshirt)

Clayton McGinness, RHP, Savannah, MO (Savannah) -- No. 3 RHP in MO (2-2, 7.48 ERA)
Matt Whalen, RHP, Valor Xtian, CO -- No. 5 RHP in CO, West Region HS AA -- honorable mention (left team, 2-1 for Cisco TX in limited action, coming back next year)

Jon Ferredelli -- 1st Team Juco AA (out with injury?)
Chase Williams -- 25th Round Draft Pick (2-6, 6.10 ERA)
Willie Schwanke -- 22nd Round Draft Pick (5-3, 3.40 ERA when injured)
Sam Tewes -- 2014 First Team Freshman AA (1-2, 7.36 ERA when injured)
Zach Lewis -- Second Team Juco AA, 33rd Round Draft Pick (2-9, 5.96)

[JohnQShocker]

There is to many resources and money put into WSU baseball to allow for the standard MVC expectation of hopefully being good once every 4 years. The standard has been set:

1. Winning the MVC regular season,
2. Being an at-large worthy team.

A plus would be worth of hosting a regional
Butler would be a god if he produced a team that was worth of hosting a super regional
Butler would get a contract extension if he take the team to CWS.

Very realistic expectations and I agree with you that this is what we should expect next season.

[1972Shocker]

There is to many resources and money put into WSU baseball to allow for the standard MVC expectation of hopefully being good once every 4 years. The standard has been set:

1. Winning the MVC regular season,
2. Being an at-large worthy team.

A plus would be worth of hosting a regional
Butler would be a god if he produced a team that was worth of hosting a super regional
Butler would get a contract extension if he take the team to CWS.

Why would he need to do that. He got a contract worthy of that kind of performance from Day 1.