Just How Clsoe to the Abyss are We Today?

[60Shock]

Just how close to the abyss are we today?

Let me preface this by stating I am an outrageous supporter of protecting America and American lives, at just about any cost, with very few exceptions. And that I have more than just a general understanding of our intelligence agencies.

A note in the preface of a novel by Brad Thor, titled "Black List" copyright 2012, has an Author's Note stating, "All of the technology contained in this novel is based on systems currently deployed, or in the final stages of development, by the United States government and its partners."

The preface of the book has quotes that Senator Frank Church, former Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, made on August 17, 1975, when he appeared on NBC's Meet the Press to discuss the results of his full-scale investigation into America's burgeoning intelligence capabilities. Senator Church revealed startling information and closed with a dire warning to every citizen of the United States:

"America's intelligence gathering capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left. Such is the capability to monitor everything: Telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide.

"If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capability that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that the NSA and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss.

That is the abyss from which there is no return."

[SubGod22]

The day will come

[Rlh04d]

So ... because our intelligence capabilities could be turned against the average person, we shouldn't have them, out of fear that they could be abused?

Man, have you seen our military? What do you think we'd do against our military if this country ever became tyrannical? Should we shut down our military? You think stockpiling a bunch of guns is going to protect you from an F-22 or an M1 Abrams tank?

What we should really do is weaken our government to such an extent that they could never hurt us if they chose to become tyrants. That'll solve things.

At some point you have to trust that the people in the military and in the NSA are Americans, and have JUST as much incentive to ensure that the America we all love remains the same. And that the courts overseeing them have the same mindset. And the people in Congress. We have checks and balances for a reason. When the checks and balances actually stop working, we're ****ed regardless. We have no way to defend ourselves against our government, and NEVER will. Because if we did, our government would have no way of defending us from ANYONE else. That's like cutting off your arms and legs because maybe you'd eventually go crazy and start punching and kicking someone.

What will kill America isn't a tyrant rising to power. We have too many checks and balances, and our military is filled with far too many patriots for that to ever happen. What WILL kill America is Americans completely losing faith in the system. I have no faith in this country to re-do our political system without a civil war. And we would never reunite after another civil war.

The fact that you're quoting something from 1975 should tell you all you need to know: this isn't a new worry people are having. We just keep repeating the same concerns for decades. And yet those fears have never come into being. Because our military aren't just patriots when they're in a warzone in Iraq -- they're also patriots when they're sitting at a computer working intelligence. They're no more likely to willingly violate the rights of Americans with a computer than they are with an M16.

[kcshocker11]

So ... because our intelligence capabilities could be turned against the average person, we shouldn't have them, out of fear that they could be abused?

Man, have you seen our military? What do you think we'd do against our military if this country ever became tyrannical? Should we shut down our military? You think stockpiling a bunch of guns is going to protect you from an F-22 or an M1 Abrams tank?

What we should really do is weaken our government to such an extent that they could never hurt us if they chose to become tyrants. That'll solve things.

At some point you have to trust that the people in the military and in the NSA are Americans, and have JUST as much incentive to ensure that the America we all love remains the same. And that the courts overseeing them have the same mindset. And the people in Congress. We have checks and balances for a reason. When the checks and balances actually stop working, we're ****ed regardless. We have no way to defend ourselves against our government, and NEVER will. Because if we did, our government would have no way of defending us from ANYONE else. That's like cutting off your arms and legs because maybe you'd eventually go crazy and start punching and kicking someone.

What will kill America isn't a tyrant rising to power. We have too many checks and balances, and our military is filled with far too many patriots for that to ever happen. What WILL kill America is Americans completely losing faith in the system. I have no faith in this country to re-do our political system without a civil war. And we would never reunite after another civil war.

The fact that you're quoting something from 1975 should tell you all you need to know: this isn't a new worry people are having. We just keep repeating the same concerns for decades. And yet those fears have never come into being. Because our military aren't just patriots when they're in a warzone in Iraq -- they're also patriots when they're sitting at a computer working intelligence. They're no more likely to willingly violate the rights of Americans with a computer than they are with an M16.

Well said

[MoValley John]

Not really all that well said. The word patriot was used far too often. I was in the military, and yes, the guy at the computer will look at anything he is told to look at, just as the general will order it to be looked at because he was ordered.

Nobody should say, or is saying that the military shouldn't have the abikity and technology to spy, but it should never be used on US citizens. We are getting eerily close to crossing the line. The statement made in 1975 could have been made in 1875, and again in 2075, the meaning and warning is the same. As citizens, we need to be vigilant regarding tyranny. The same tyranny the right wingers are fearing today could be the tyranny the left wingers fear in 20 years. Another president and it could Bethe IRS up your ass. Remember, it was Bush that started all of this with the Patriot Act. We have merely been desensitized to the intrusions and without a vigilant populous, the incroachment into our privacy will grow.

[SB Shock]

Man, have you seen our military? What do you think we'd do against our military if this country ever became tyrannical? Should we shut down our military? You think stockpiling a bunch of guns is going to protect you from an F-22 or an M1 Abrams tank?

F22 is obsolete, old technology and has never fired a shot in anger, and since it is a Air Superiority fighter most Americans have no worries unless you are flying high in Colorado.

What WILL kill America is Americans completely losing faith in the system.

Capture.JPG

[Rlh04d]

F22 is obsolete, old technology and has never fired a shot in anger, and since it is a Air Superiority fighter most Americans have no worries unless you are flying high in Colorado.

Trusting the government that's in power right now is far different from trusting the system that we have.

That's the difference between trusting the current President and trusting the Constitution.

[Rlh04d]

Not really all that well said. The word patriot was used far too often. I was in the military, and yes, the guy at the computer will look at anything he is told to look at, just as the general will order it to be looked at because he was ordered.

Nobody should say, or is saying that the military shouldn't have the abikity and technology to spy, but it should never be used on US citizens. We are getting eerily close to crossing the line. The statement made in 1975 could have been made in 1875, and again in 2075, the meaning and warning is the same. As citizens, we need to be vigilant regarding tyranny. The same tyranny the right wingers are fearing today could be the tyranny the left wingers fear in 20 years. Another president and it could Bethe IRS up your ass. Remember, it was Bush that started all of this with the Patriot Act. We have merely been desensitized to the intrusions and without a vigilant populous, the incroachment into our privacy will grow.

The same tyranny the right wingers are fearing today is the same tyranny the left wingers were fearing 10 years ago when the Patriot Act was put into law.

I fully agree that the ability shouldn't be used to spy on US citizens. But we're blurring the lines between the FBI and the NSA too much in people's minds, because despite the insistence that everyone is an expert on our intelligence system right now, most of the people talking about this are far from experts. The FBI deals with Americans, the NSA does not.

As for your comments about the military, you might have been willing to do whatever you were told, but most members of the military won't. There aren't many people in the military who are willing to do something that would violate the rights of their family members just because they were told to. Or set up a system that will violate their own rights when they separate from the military.

I definitely agree that we need to be vigilant against anything that threatens the rights of Americans. I think the current hullabaloo is going way too far, though. "Do we really want to go this far?" is a debate that we should absolutely be having -- but we need to be having it logically, within the context of what is an acceptable trade-off of our privacy for our security. Vilifying our government is childish and does nothing to create logical, adult conversation about a complicated topic. I think we need to have those logical, adult conversations about both how far we want our intelligence community to go, and how big we need our military to be. But we can't do it in a way that refuses to acknowledge how vital both are to the continuance of our way of life. Our current intelligence system might absolutely be going too far -- but if so, it's not because our government is becoming tyrannical or turning against us. If it's going too far, it's likely because people in the system are so enthusiastic about defending America against outside threats that they haven't adequately taken precautions to protect Americans along the way. What "going too far" is, though, is entirely up to debate, and will always change over time.

[MoValley John]

As for your comments about the military, you might have been willing to do whatever you were told, but most members of the military won't. There aren't many people in the military who are willing to do something that would violate the rights of their family members just because they were told to.

You are absolutely wrong. It would be very difficult to get American service people to fire on Americans, but quite easy to get them to spy on Americans.

I say this with absolutely confidence. Ask other servicemen or former servicemen. Furthermore, most of the eavesdropping the military would be doing, the low level people wouldn't even know that they were spying on Americans. Simple information gathering from unknown sources. That's all the need to know they get.

[Rlh04d]

You are absolutely wrong. It would be very difficult to get American service people to fire on Americans, but quite easy to get them to spy on Americans.

I say this with absolutely confidence. Ask other servicemen or former servicemen. Furthermore, most of the eavesdropping the military would be doing, the low level people wouldn't even know that they were spying on Americans. Simple information gathering from unknown sources. That's all the need to know they get.

Being currently in the military, and in the intelligence community, I would be a better source for information on this than you would be. You are absolutely wrong. How many other servicemen in intel would you like me to go survey?

You have no concept of how "information gathering" works.

[MoValley John]

Being currently in the military, and in the intelligence community, I would be a better source for information on this than you would be. You are absolutely wrong. How many other servicemen in intel would you like me to go survey?

You have no concept of how "information gathering" works.

Nope, I wouldn't. I just did it back in the Reagan era. The whole methodology of information gathering has changed since then. Back then, we used Dixie Cups and kite string. We Never listened domestically, we obeyed every law, and we liked using the IRS to harass people with different ideologies. It was all good!

[MoValley John]

Being currently in the military, and in the intelligence community, I would be a better source for information on this than you would be. You are absolutely wrong. How many other servicemen in intel would you like me to go survey?

You have no concept of how "information gathering" works.

Also, currently being in the military and in the intelligence community, you are about the last person to ask regarding trusting the Intel community. Lawyers always say trust a lawyer, so do shady car dealers... No, if you're in the Intel community, I'll ask some one else if I can trust you.

[SB Shock]

Trusting the government that's in power right now is far different from trusting the system that we have.

That's the difference between trusting the current President and trusting the Constitution.

The judiciary that over reaches. The legislative branch can't even handle the basic task of having a budget that is not constantly writing bad checks. You have an executive branch that is either imcompetent or criminal with no accountability. The checks and balances are failing.

You basically have a government/political system that doesn't believe in the constitution - thus u have no trust in the govetnment.

[SB Shock]

Being currently in the military, and in the intelligence community, I would be a better source for information on this than you would be. You are absolutely wrong. How many other servicemen in intel would you like me to go survey?

You have no concept of how "information gathering" works.

Lol, problem u have is there is probably a pretty good proportion of SN who are former military and actually understand that MILITARY INTELLIGENCE is a oxymoron.

[kcshocker11]

You are absolutely wrong. It would be very difficult to get American service people to fire on Americans, but quite easy to get them to spy on Americans.

.

Really!!!

Though no one was killed but Gen Macarthur had very little problems sending is troops in to clear out Hooverville. I have no doubt if he had order them to shoot some would have.

http://morrisonews.net/THE BONUS ARMY.html