2020 Democratic Nominee

[BOBB]

This assumes that any and all businesses who received PPP funds were "rich". That is absolutely not the case. Again, the stories you heard on the MSM about PPP fraud were those in the minority. Trust me. I saw it first hand as I was part of this program. I saw many businesses who absolutely would have gone out of business that were able to remain in business and hire back all of their employees because of it. In no way was it perfect, but it was a far better option than universal income. What an absolute disaster and waste that would have been.

I think the 80/20 rule applies. There were definitely businesses saved and I am glad yours was one. I am intimately involved in the program as well. A number of the businesses took these didn't need them or didn't use them as intended.

Not related to rich or not rich, more about business impact and use of funds.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

The CARES act was $3B. PPP was $669M. So, actually greater fraud as a percentage than you quoted. I believe PPP was an administration idea, but almost everyone was onboard, so potato/potato. I know what they tried to accomplish by keeping people on payrolls, out of unemployment system, and attached to their workplace. It didn't work from the outset as businesses took the money, laid people off, and planned to deal with repayment if necessary. I think many people thought we would be well over the coronavirus by expiration of the program. We weren't. So many of those small businesses remained shuttered with no recall of employees. As many on the left (and some right) thought at the time, we would have been better off just going with a temporary Universal Basic Income. Poor would have spent it on rent, food, drugs, beer, video games...but it would have recirculated into the economy. The rich would have saved it knowing they would have to pay it back in taxes. No bureaucracy created to manage it, etc...hindsight.

There will most certainly be fraud in a government health care program. There is fraud in private insurance. My state's governor mentioned that tax auditors bring in several multiples (I can't find the figure) of their marginal cost and they could grow staff exponentially before it reached zero marginal utility. The legislature and its business backers, of course, wanted no part of this government overreach into their taxes. Whereas, the private company is going to hire investigators until it doesn't make sense. Point being, the government would be capable of running an efficient insurance market if given the resources to enforce its administration.

This assumes that any and all businesses who received PPP funds were "rich". That is absolutely not the case. Again, the stories you heard on the MSM about PPP fraud were those in the minority. Trust me. I saw it first hand as I was part of this program. I saw many businesses who absolutely would have gone out of business that were able to remain in business and hire back all of their employees because of it. In no way was it perfect, but it was a far better option than universal income. What an absolute disaster and waste that would have been.

[WstateU]

Sounds like a Men’s Warehouse ad... “I guarantee it!”

[BOBB]

This is a serious question for Bobb, Revenge of Shaka Khan, Rocky Mountain Shock, Wuzee, or other self proclaimed moderate lefty's or lefty's (whoever claims this that I've missed).

Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) was a 3 Trillion dollar federal government program to help small businesses, and employees, during the pandemic because it wasn't their fault. It had the best of intentions when it began, but as with, seemingly, All Government Run programs, it went awry. The following article talked about the PPP and as it says, $62 MILLION is the Tip of the Iceberg.We can't seem to run any government program with effectiveness when it becomes a huge program without fraud coming into the equation.

So, no trolling, here is the honest question. With 350 Million Americans, how can we possibly run a HUGE Health Care program that is going to be larger than the PPP without fraud creeping into the program?





$62 million in alleged PPP fraud is ‘tip of the iceberg’
BY STACY COWLEY
NEW YORK TIMES
The criminal complaints read like catalogs of luxury bling: a diamond-laden $52,000 Rolex, a gambling spree at the Bellagio, two Lamborghinis, a pair of Cadillac Escalades, a Rolls-Royce. All that and more, law enforcement officials said, was financed through schemes to defraud the federal government’s signature coronavirus relief program for small businesses.

The Justice Department has made at least 41 criminal complaints in federal court against nearly 60 people, who collectively took $62 million from the Paycheck Protection Program by using what law enforcement officials said were forged documents, stolen identities and false certifications.

They are just “the smallest, tiniest piece of the tip of the iceberg,” said Hannibal Ware, inspector general of the Small Business Administration, which led the program.

The CARES act was $3B. PPP was $669M. So, actually greater fraud as a percentage than you quoted. I believe PPP was an administration idea, but almost everyone was onboard, so potato/potato. I know what they tried to accomplish by keeping people on payrolls, out of unemployment system, and attached to their workplace. It didn't work from the outset as businesses took the money, laid people off, and planned to deal with repayment if necessary. I think many people thought we would be well over the coronavirus by expiration of the program. We weren't. So many of those small businesses remained shuttered with no recall of employees. As many on the left (and some right) thought at the time, we would have been better off just going with a temporary Universal Basic Income. Poor would have spent it on rent, food, drugs, beer, video games...but it would have recirculated into the economy. The rich would have saved it knowing they would have to pay it back in taxes. No bureaucracy created to manage it, etc...hindsight.

There will most certainly be fraud in a government health care program. There is fraud in private insurance. My state's governor mentioned that tax auditors bring in several multiples (I can't find the figure) of their marginal cost and they could grow staff exponentially before it reached zero marginal utility. The legislature and its business backers, of course, wanted no part of this government overreach into their taxes. Whereas, the private company is going to hire investigators until it doesn't make sense. Point being, the government would be capable of running an efficient insurance market if given the resources to enforce its administration.

[ShockingButTrue]

No kidding.

And speaking of hoaxes:


LAW AND ORDER.jpg

[wufan]

Then you’ve got people that aren’t happy they aren’t being targeted so they hoax target themselves. The whole thing is a mess.

[ShockingButTrue]

I think people on the left and the right want to avoid being targeted. Who could blame them?

I'd say.

Trump Voter.jpg

[shock]

I think people on the left and the right want to avoid being targeted. Who could blame them?

And then there’s my buddy.

4D2292EA-5226-4C2A-87EA-A17D187270F9.jpeg

[WstateU]

[wufan]

I think people on the left and the right want to avoid being targeted. Who could blame them?

[MoValley John]

I'm seeing absolutely no yard signs for Biden. There are around 4 Trump signs in our neighborhood. I don't see many bumper stickers (not even a handful) for Trump. Absolutely none for Biden. Where I DO see Trump signs is out in the boondocks (Hill Country), but again, not many of those, either.

I would not want a bumper sticker for either one on my car. It's not a fancy car, but I would not want it keyed. People seem to spend a lot of time these days trying to trigger each other, emotions are high. Besides that, I think it's a little dumb to put a bumper sticker on your car, it might cause people to assume a whole lot that they might not be assuming about if you just kept your bumpers clean.

I agree that bumper stickers are stupid, I never ever put them on cars, but as long as I can remember, people have always bumper stickered up cars with potus candidates, but not this year. Its about the only refreshing thing, no bumper stickers!

[revenge_of_shocka_khan]

Something struck me while driving today. At least in Omaha, you're hard pressed to find a single Biden bumper sticker. I don't think I've seen any. You still see faded Obama stickers, and lots and lots of Bernie, but no Biden. No Biden yard signs, either. On the flip side, not a lot of Trump stickers out there, either. But some.

As angry as our society is right now, maybe people are just passing on yard signs and bumper stickers, but I see lots of Senate and House signs and bumper stickers, from both parties, just nothing Biden and very little Trump.

Not traveling, I don't know if this is isolated and the national parties aren't spending money on the election here, but I sort of think that while we are very divided, there isn't any excitement with either candidate. Nobody wants to defile their rides with these two choices.

I'm seeing absolutely no yard signs for Biden. There are around 4 Trump signs in our neighborhood. I don't see many bumper stickers (not even a handful) for Trump. Absolutely none for Biden. Where I DO see Trump signs is out in the boondocks (Hill Country), but again, not many of those, either.

I would not want a bumper sticker for either one on my car. It's not a fancy car, but I would not want it keyed. People seem to spend a lot of time these days trying to trigger each other, emotions are high. Besides that, I think it's a little dumb to put a bumper sticker on your car, it might cause people to assume a whole lot that they might not be assuming about if you just kept your bumpers clean.

[MoValley John]

Something struck me while driving today. At least in Omaha, you're hard pressed to find a single Biden bumper sticker. I don't think I've seen any. You still see faded Obama stickers, and lots and lots of Bernie, but no Biden. No Biden yard signs, either. On the flip side, not a lot of Trump stickers out there, either. But some.

As angry as our society is right now, maybe people are just passing on yard signs and bumper stickers, but I see lots of Senate and House signs and bumper stickers, from both parties, just nothing Biden and very little Trump.

Not traveling, I don't know if this is isolated and the national parties aren't spending money on the election here, but I sort of think that while we are very divided, there isn't any excitement with either candidate. Nobody wants to defile their rides with these two choices.

[wufan]

[ShockingButTrue]